I'm more than happy for other people to see what I feel, and I think that the more people discuss it in general, the better. More discussion should lead to the best solution. (although....:-) Basically I'm neither for nor against the rap chains at frog. (I don't donate for them) This is not to say I don't use them. I do. But if they weren't there, I wouldn't get too upset. Instead of bumming around on the ground for a while, pretending to be getting ready for another climb, I'd bum around up top a bit longer and then go straight to the next climb. Scott is right in saying that adding such conveniences does change the nature of the climb. You can go out to frog now, and instead of committing to something wild and wonderful and still having to think about how you're going to get down, possibly walking back, or finding anchors, you can now just climb. Would you like chips with your anchor sir? However the removal of existing chains is, in MY opinion, counterproductive. It encourages factional wars, and is basically wasteful. Maybe the chains should not have been installed, but removing them is pointless. This I feel is very like the bolt/no bolt arguments of days gone by. Maybe the bolts shouldn't have been installed, but chopping them makes more of a mess, and doesn't prove a great deal. This is countered by the argument: leaving [bolts/anchors] there encourages more [bolts/anchors] Which is fair enough, but not all that truthful. The chains have been primarily put in by only a handful of people, whom we can hopefully assume are big enough boys not to continue if the rest of the community feels they shouldn't. Frog is primarily a natural climbing venue, and there have been many long and bitter wars about the morality of bolts in the past. Please let's not do this all over again. (Hitler marching to Russia in winter anyone?) So my suggestion, for what it's worth: No more chains. No more removal of chains. Reasoning (briefly) Then we have a handful of chains, just like we have a handful of bolts. Yours sincerely, Karl Palsson PS This all completely ignores the issue of tree protection, ostensibly the idea behind the rap chains. I fail to really see a tree being ringbarked by a rope being pulled down. (Maybe I'm just too much engineer and not enough botanist) I can very easily see a tree being ringbarked by people toproping/lowering off the trees. But really, who would want to? It makes your rope all crappy. If there's no chains, 1" tape is about $2 / metre. So instead of paying $10 for fuel, you pay $12.